The future of interest rates …

WOW … the news is FULL of things to keep an investor awake at night.

Some of it’s so exciting, you can’t wait to seize the opportunity.  Other things are so spooky, you want to pull the covers up and hope it’s just a Halloween gag.

Right now, stock market investors are learning it can be a mistake to try to ride the bull all the way to the peak … squeezing every drop of paper profit out …

… falsely believing you can beat the bears to the exit.

Stocks fall for 12 of the last 14 trading sessions – Yahoo Finance, 10/23/18

Yeah, but that’s Wall Street …

Existing-Home Sales Decline Across the Country in September – National Association of Realtors, 10/19/18

Oops.  Meanwhile …

Homeowners poised to start tapping $14.4 trillion in equity – CNBC, 10/19/18

Big banks reveal challenges in consumer credit, mortgages – Yahoo Finance, 10/15/18

“banks are seeing challenging headwinds … as charge-off rates – a measure of defaulted balances –  continue to rise.” 

So while there are MANY things to like about what’s going on in the U.S. economy …

U.S. named world’s most competitive economy for the first time in 10 years– Washington Post c/o The Chicago Tribune, 10/17/18

We remind you (and ourselves) … the economy and the financial system supporting it are two VERY different things.

That’s why you can have two camps … one saying the economy is strong … and another saying disaster is looming.  And they’re BOTH right.

Of course, “disaster” does NOT mean the end of the world … or a descent into some Mad Max post-apocalyptic anarchistic society.

Disaster can be as simple as a rapid shift in asset or currency values that the majority of people are on the wrong end of.

Just like the 2008 crisis ( a warm-up for what Peter Schiff calls The Real Crash which is yet to come) …

… those who were not aware and prepared got CRUSHED … while those who were made MILLIONS.

So “disaster” isn’t a universal experience when the economic winds shift suddenly.

It’s more a personal choice (often by default from neglect) and depends on the set of YOUR personal financial sail.

You’ll either get capsized, face severe headwinds … or you’ll catch a gust of wind at your back and sail on to new fortunes.

So watching the changing economic winds is an important responsibility of any serious investor.

Interest rates are the barometer which signals a change in the economic winds.

That’s why pro investors fixate on every move or utterance of the Federal Reserve, which is ONE of the most powerful influencers of interest rates … but NOT the only one.

No investor left behind …

 Interest rates are a by-product of the bid on bonds, which are debt securities.

So if the U.S. Treasury decides to borrow money (which they do ALL the time), the bid on those securities sets the yield.

The lower the bid, the higher the yield and vice-versa.

Falling interest rates (yields) come from a STRONG bid on bonds.  That is, there’s lots of buyers for bonds relative to the supply of bonds for sale.

When the Fed wants to push rates down, they add to market demand by BUYING bonds … bidding UP the bond price and driving DOWN the yield.

Are you with us so far?

But when the Fed wants to push rates UP, they do NOT bid on bonds (leaving demand up to the open market without the Fed’s bid).

Sometimes, the Fed will even SELL bonds they already own (“unwinding their balance sheet”) … adding to the supply offered by the Treasury (and other sellers like RussiaChina and even Japan).

And more supply and less buyers means bids go down … so yields go UP.  Make sense?

Apparently, government officials aren’t concerned about soft demand for Treasuries …

Treasury Secretary Mnuchin: I won’t be ‘losing any sleep’ if China dumps US bonds in retaliation over trade – CNBC 10/12/18

“If they decide they don’t want to hold them, there are other buyers …”

Okay then. No worries.  But …

Foreign Buying of U.S. Treasurys Softens, Unsettling Financial Markets –Wall Street Journal, 10/23/18

“Yet it is clear that the foreign pullback has helped fuel a bond selloff this fall, which has driven the 10-year yield to 3.17% and has shaken the nine-year-long rally in U.S. stocks …”

There’s a reason stocks are tanking and it has little to do with the economy.  That’s why President Trump is so upset with the Fed.

But it seems to us rising interest rates could be bigger than the Fed.  And the world looks different if the Fed loses control of interest rates.

Head spinning yet?  That’s okay.  It can be complex.  But there’s a reason big money watches the bond market like a hawk.

We try to keep is simple and just focus on the big concepts and how they trickle down to our Main Street investing …

More bonds than buyers mean rates are likely to rise.

For real estate investors, it means downward pressure on values … and more caution when using short-term financing.

Of course, when you can lock in long-term rates, today’s debt actually becomes an asset over time.  But that’s a topic for another day.

And just in case the ramblings of two dudes with mobile microphones and a fetish for news articles don’t make the case …

Last Saturday, we paid a visit to the New York home of former Director of the Office of Management and Budget or OMB (like the OMB numbers you see on your tax forms) … David Stockman.

Of course, we plunked down our mics and recorded a FASCINATING interview at his kitchen table … looking out his penthouse window at the stunning New York City skyline.

If you have any doubt Stockman is a world-class brainiac, buy a copy of his EPIC tome, The Great Deformation.

Bring your lunch and dictionary, but it’s totally worth it.  Only Robert Kiyosaki’s copy is more highlighted and marked up than ours.

You may not agree with Stockman’s politics, but he’s well-qualified to have an opinion on economic matters.  So we listen carefully.

Stockman believes even higher interest rates are coming to an economy near you.

So if there’s any doubt all this airy-fairy macro-economic babble matters to YOUR Main Street investing … think again.

And be VERY thankful these things roll out slowly.

There’s still time to re-arrange your portfolio and activities to fall squarely in the “aware and prepared” camp … and NOT in the “WTF is happening?” camp.

Of course, you can’t just float along with the crowd … unless you’re very careful to pick the right crowd.

But even then, it’s dangerous to fall asleep at the controls of your portfolio.

If you’re super studious, you can probably load up on books, podcasts, newsletters, video courses, and news articles … and you’ll be ahead of most.

And if you’re like us, you’ll do all that.

But you’ll ALSO invest to get in the right rooms with the right people so you can have portfolio-saving conversations.

Since you’ve read this far, you should consider joining us at both or either theNew Orleans Investment Conference and the Investor Summit at Sea™.

It’s where we go to get around a lot of REALLY smart people for SUPER enlightening conversations.

And it’s arguably more important RIGHT NOW than in recent memory …

,,, because for many investors, this is the first time in their investing career they’ve faced a rising interest rate environment.

You can learn by trial and error (expensive and painful) … or by gleaning wisdom from seasoned investors and well-qualified subject matter experts.

It’s probably obvious which one we advocate.

Until next time … good investing!


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Profits, jobs, and opportunity …

In spite of rising rates and concerns about bubbles … real estate is looking pretty good right now.  At least the right real estate in the right markets.

Of course, “real estate” can mean a lot of different things.  In this case, we’re talking about good ol’ fashioned single-family residences.   Houses.

Yes, we know mortgage rates are rising.  But that just means it’s harder for renters to buy a home … which keeps them renting … from YOU.

And if you proceed with caution, there are some reasons to pursue single-family homes even though prices have recovered substantially from the 2008 lows.

Consider this Yahoo Finance headline:

Small business earnings hit all-time high, NFIB declares

“Small business earnings rose to the highest levels in at least 45 years last month, according to the results of a survey from the National Federation of Independent Businesses (NFIB) …” 

“ …  the 17th consecutive month of ‘historically high readings.’”

That’s good news for small business owners … and for the U.S. economy.  It’s commonly believed that small business drives a majority of job creation.

So perhaps this CNBC headline isn’t a big surprise …

Job openings hit record high of 6.6 million

Of course, job creation is good for landlords.  It’s a lot easier for tenants to pay rent when they actually have jobs.

But there’s the issue of wages.  Even though the unemployment rate fell below 4% … which is considered “tight” … wages still haven’t risen substantially … yet.

Meanwhile, life is getting more expensive as rising interest ratesgas prices and healthcare premiums are among several factors squeezing household budgets.

While jobs are good, it’s hard to save up for a down payment when living costs are going up faster than paychecks … which keeps people renting.

And if all that isn’t a big enough challenge, there’s the problem of high housing prices.  Obviously, higher prices also make it harder for renters to become homeowners.

So all that’s not horrible news for landlords … especially those who are investing in more affordable markets and property types.

But there are two more parts to the story …

First has to do with a deeper dive into the jobs market.  The April jobs report didn’t seem great at first blush.

But in the past, the reports looked great at first, then you’d drill down and discover the jobs created were low-wage service industry jobs.

Notably, recent jobs reports reflect a subtle but important shift in the composition of jobs.

So while the quantity of jobs created might be not bad … the quality is actually looking pretty good.

According to this Wall Street Journal article, manufacturing added 24,000 workers in April … after adding 22,000 and 31,000 in the last two months.

“While manufacturing employment has been generally declining for decades, hiring picked up in the sector over the past year.” 

Way back our 2011 blog, What Washington Could Learn from Real Estate Investors, we argued that not all jobs are equal. We like what’s happening.

Seems to us if the American economy can keep this up, it’s a tailwind for housing … in spite of rising rates, inflation, and high debt levels.

And speaking of wind …

As we discussed at length during Future of Money and Wealth, the entire financial system is based on debt.  So to grow the economy, debt MUST grow.

The why and how of all that is too big a topic for today’s discussion, but if you take it at face value, it really explains a lot.  It also has some big ramifications for real estate.

After 2008, lenders ran away from real estate … but debt still needed to expand.  So new debt-slaves borrowers were needed.

Student debt soared.  Sub-prime auto loans spiked.  Credit cards hit record highs. Corporations borrowed heavily to bid up their own stock.

But today, students are reconsidering the value of a financed college education.  Auto sales are slowing.  Credit card losses are mounting.

Corporations are slowing down their borrowing … with nearly 14% of the largest companies unable to pay their interest payments from earnings.

In fact, a recent Bloomberg article quotes Gregg Lippman of “Big Short” fame as saying corporate debt will trigger the next financial crisis.

“ … corporate debt and equities will face the biggest pain when the next downturn comes. Investments linked to consumer debt, unlike the last crisis, will be relatively safe …”

“The consumer is in much better shape than corporates. Consumers are less levered than they were pre-crisis. Corporates are more levered than they were pre-crisis …”

So let’s wrap this all up and put a bow on it …

If it’s true debt MUST expand, lenders will be looking for where they can make loans.  Remember, your debt is their “investment”.

There are already tremors in the debt markets.  Lenders will be looking for quality.

Similarly, there are tremors in the stock markets.  Investors and consumers will be looking for an alternative for their wealth building (remember, consumers consider their home an investment).

So we think there’s a good chance the focus will shift to real estate again.  Just like it did in the early 2000s.

Yes, we know the run-up from 2000 – 2008 ended badly.  But not for everyone.

If you buy the right markets, use sustainable financing structures, and pay attention to cash flow, there’s an argument to be made that single-family homes still have solid potential for long-term wealth building.

Until next time … good investing!


More From The Real Estate Guys™…

The Real Estate Guys™ radio show and podcast provides real estate investing news, education, training, and resources to help real estate investors succeed.

The future of interest rates …

Interest rates are a big deal for real estate investors … for many reasons.

The first and most obvious reason is because interest rates are the price of the money you borrow to invest with.  Higher rates mean higher payments and less cash flow.

Of course, even when you pay cash for your properties, your tenants probably carry consumer debt … car loans, credit card, and installment debt …

Higher rates mean higher debt payments for your tenants, so less of their monthly budget is available to pay you rent or absorb rent increases.

Also, your property values, exit options, and liquidity are all affected by interest rates.

Higher rates mean buyers have less capacity to bid up comparable properties … and fewer buyers can afford to buy your property when you’re ready to sell.

For these reasons and others, most real estate investors and their mortgage advisors pay very close attention to interest rates …  especially when financing or re-financing.

But there are other very important reasons for real estate investors to care about the future of interest rates …

Interest rates are a barometer for the health of both the currency and the overall economy.

Last time we looked, most real estate investors transact and denominate wealth in currency (dollars for Americans) … and your rental properties, tenants’ incomes, and overall prosperity all exist inside of the broader economy.

So the potential for big changes to either the currency or the overall economy matter to real estate investors just like they do to paper asset investors.

In fact, based on the amount of debt most real estate investors use, interest rates are arguably even MORE important to real estate investors.

We’re just a couple of days away from our Future of Money and Wealth conference … with nearly 400 people coming … and right now we’re thinking a lot about the dollar and interest rates.

Peter Schiff is speaking.  Peter wrote Crash Proof in 2006 and released it in 2007.  Back then, he loudly warned of an impending financial crisis whose roots would be in the mortgage market.

Sadly, back then we didn’t know Peter, and we didn’t read his book.  Then 2008 happened, and we were blindsided by the financial crisis.

So now we read more … a LOT more.

We make time to listen to people like Peter Schiff, Robert Kiyosaki, and Chris Martenson.  And we work hard to share them with our audiences.

A very interesting book we just finished is Exorbitant Privilege by Barry Eichengreen.  He’s Professor of Political Science and Economics at Cal Berkeley.

Eichengreen published Exorbitant Privilege in 2011, which means he probably wrote it in 2010.

Keep this in mind as we share these prophetic excerpts from Chapter 7, “Dollar Crisis”…

“What if foreigners dump their holdings and abandon the currency [dollar]?  What, if anything, could U.S. policymakers do about it?”

“It would be nice were this kind of scenario planning undertaken by the Federal Reserve and CIA … it would have to start with what precipitated the crash and caused foreigners to abandon the dollar.”

Note:  Eichengreen probably didn’t know at the time that James Rickards, former attorney for Long Term Capital Management (the hedge fund at the center of the near financial meltdown of 1998), was participating in precisely this kind of planning, which Rickards describes in his book Currency Wars, published a year after Exorbitant Privilege.

Back to Eichengreen’s prophetic 2011 commentary …

“One trigger could be political conflict between the United States and China.  The simmering dispute over trade and exchange rates could break into the open …

“… American politicians … could impose an across-the-board tariff on imports from [China].”

WOW … Eichengreen wrote that at least 7 years before this March 22, 2018 headline from CNBC:

Trump slaps China with tariffs on up to $60 billion in imports: ‘This is the first of many’

Back to Eichengreen in 2011 …

“Beijing would not take this lying down.”

CNN Money on April 3, 2018:

China to US: We’ll match your tariffs in ‘scale’ and ‘intensity’

Eichengreen in 2011:

“Or the United States and China could come into conflict over policy toward rogue states like North Korea and Iran.”

If you’ve been following the North Korea drama, you probably know this one’s been back and forth.

Last summer, China seemed to side with North Korea.  Then they tried to take a neutral position.

But recently Kim Jong Un paid a secret visit to China.  Of course, no one really knows what that was about.

But based on recent trade policy it seems the U.S. isn’t sucking up to China for help with North Korea.  So maybe the U.S. and China disagree on North Korea?

Now STAY WITH US … because the point of all this is … according to Eichengreen …

China’s relationship with the United States and the U.S. dollar has a DIRECT impact on the future of YOUR money, interest rates, and wealth.

And if you’re like most Main Streeters, you may not completely understand the connection …

… just like we didn’t understand what Credit Default Swaps had to do with our real estate investing in 2008 … until everything suddenly imploded …

… despite reassurances from the wise and powerful man then behind the curtain of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke.

And the point here isn’t Iran, or North Korea, or tariffs, or trade wars … it’s about whether China gets upset enough with the U.S. and opts for the nuclear option …

Eichengreen in 2011:

“… China [could] vent its anger and exert leverage … by … dumping [Treasuries] … would send the bond markets into a tizzy … interest rates in the United States would spike.  The dollar would crater … could cause exporters, importers, and investors to abandon the dollar permanently.”

Obviously, there’s a LOT more to this topic than we can cover today.

Our point for now is that way back in 2010-11, Eichengreen envisioned a scenario in which conflict with China could create a dollar crisis.

As you can see, today’s headlines are living out his concerns.

When you read Eichengreen, like Jim Rickards, he talks about things reaching a tipping point … where everything happens fast.

We lived that in 2008 and it was NO FUN.  But that was only because we were on the wrong end of it.  While we got slammed, others made fortunes. They were informed and prepared.  We weren’t.

So be cautious of normalcy bias and complacency when it comes to contemplating the possibility of a dollar crisis.

Better to be prepared and not have a crisis … than to have a crisis and not be prepared.

Until next time … good investing!


More From The Real Estate Guys™…

The Real Estate Guys™ radio show and podcast provides real estate investing news, education, training, and resources to help real estate investors succeed.

12/14/14: Stocks or Real Estate – Which is a Better Investment?

In a recent article published by CNBC, famed economist Robert Shiller (yes, that Robert Shiller of the oft-referenced Case-Shiller index) is quoted as saying he thinks stocks are a better investment than real estate over a lifetime.

REALLY???

That’s like kicking a sleeping dog.  

So we got up off the couch and decided to do a show on this topic.

Some might say we’re shills for real estate…but we’ll find out who’s a bigger shiller here.

In the broadcast doghouse for this episode of The Real Estate Guys™ radio show:

  • Your big dog host, Robert Helms
  • His little dog co-host, Russell Gray

So we’re hanging out in our broadcast briefs perusing the news for interesting subject matter…and we see an article by CNBC headlined, “Where to put your cash? A house or a stock?”

Hmmm…that sounds interesting…

The article opens up saying that even though the stock market is at record highs, the government is pushing home ownership to build wealth…and using easy credit to help all those poor, unqualified borrowers.

The author immediately questions the premise by reminding readers of the “catastrophic housing crash of the last decade“…while completely failing to mention the accompanying catastrophic crash of the stock market…but more on that in a moment…

Then the author invokes Nobel Prize-winning economist Robert Shiller who is quoted as saying, “It would be perhaps smarter, if wealth accumulation is your goal, to rent and put money in the stock market, which has historically show much higher returns than the housing market.”

Seriously? Okay, now our hackles are up…

So we keep reading…and discover those comments were made at a Standard & Poor’s conference.  Last time we looked, S&P is mostly about stocks and Wall Street.

Of course, we do a little speaking from time to time, so we know when you’re in someone else’s house, it’s smart to say nice things. We don’t begrudge Mr. Shiller for playing to his audience.

Side note: a few days later, CNBC put out a video where Shiller says, “Go back to buying houses.”  Wow, that was fast. But we know the stock market moves quickly. 😉

Back to our current article…

So the CNBC author says, “Shiller notes that the comparison between stock returns and home value returns is rough, given that stocks pay cash dividends and housing pays ‘in kind’, in the form of housing services; that is, you get to live in the house.”

That VERY important point is quickly set aside in the next paragraph, which compares ONLY the capital gains of the broad stock market since 1890…yes EIGHTEEN NINETY…and Shiller’s own secret recipe (that’s how you win a Nobel Prize) of the “real” U.S. home price index.

There’s SO much here…we’re starting to pant.

The bottom line says Shiller according to the CNBC article…is that the net real capital gains (presumably after being adjusted for inflation) are “smaller than one might expect” (we get that a lot…)

Really? How small?

The article quotes Shiller as saying for stocks it’s about 2.03 percent per year. And houses…only a paltry 33 basis points (about 1/3 of 1%).

Confused? If buying stocks and real estate sucks so badly, why would ANYONE do it?

The perhaps obvious answer is that NOT doing it sucks WORSE.

Think about it. The dollar has lost about 98% of it’s value since the Fed was created in 1913. If you simply stacked up paper dollars, you’d be at a negative 98%. So plus 2%…or even plus 1/3% sounds pretty good by comparison.

So now that we know investing…even spending… is better than cash under the mattress, we’re back to comparing stocks and real estate.

The CNBC article points out that “A house can offer greater returns if the owner chooses to rent it out and not to live in it.” Duh. Welcome to our world.

This highlights a bigger point, which is that when you’re reading a mainstream financial media article on real estate, they almost always are talking about the house you live in.

To the CNBC author’s credit, she mentions that “Shiller adds homes should not be seen as an investment vehicle, like a stock, but as a consumption good, like a car.”

We agree. But, isn’t the entire premise of the article a comparison of the investing in stocks versus real estate? You might want to lead with that next time…

Still, this is a VERY USEFUL exercise for anyone enticed by this record high stock market...and every real estate investor being chastised by their stock investing friends. And ESPECIALLY useful for any real estate entrepreneur who’s out raising money to syndicate real estate deals.

After all, we’re all hearing about how great the stock market is doing. In fact, here’s an amazing chart from the CNBC article:

This shows how the stock market (blue) is crushing housing (red).

Aren’t you impressed?

Do you see the real estate bubble of 2003-2007 and the “catastrophic crash” in 2008? (Pay no attention to those GIGANTIC blue line ups and downs…but since you are…what does the pattern say might be next for stocks???)

The CNBC article concludes with this:

“The happy compromise [between taking the risk of leaving equity in a house whose value might drop and putting the equity to “better” use by investing in the stock market]…would be to keep less equity in your home though a long-term, low-down payment mortgage; or…through an interest only loan, and keep more cash at the ready for investing in the stock market. It’s a riskier choice, given the current volatility in home prices, but it may be the best way to build wealth.”

So NOW we’re on the floor laughing out loud…

Open your eyes. You can now look at the blue line in the chart.

Who’s calling who volatile???

First, before we go ballistic…we must say we LOVE the idea of getting idle equity out of a property to shelter it from that ever-fickle Mr. Market.

And because mortgage interest rates are SO low…you don’t have to be Warren Buffet to out-earn the cost of borrowing…especially when you consider that the interest is tax-deductible.
But stocks? We don’t think so. That chart makes us dizzy…

So we need to do some math. We figure if you’ve read this far, you must be a SERIOUS reader, so you can probably handle it.

We’ll only do enough to help you understand why there’s NO CONTEST when it comes to risk-adjusted returns in real estate versus the stock market.

Ready?  Take a cleansing breath…and…here we go…

First, let’s just say that Shiller is right and the real average annual value increase (capital gain) on housing is 33 basis points per year. We could argue, but he’s a Noble Prize winner. We’re a couple of schmoes with microphones.

What his comments and the CNBC article don’t take into consideration is financing…or better stated…leverage.

So if you were to put 20% down, you’d control five 20% parts of an asset (the property) which is 100% of it. That is, your “capital stack” is 20% cash from you (down payment) and 80% cash from the bank (the loan).

But YOU get 100% of the 33 basis points appreciation. At 5:1 leverage (you have only 20% cash in), YOUR appreciation rate on your cash is 5 x .33 or 1.65%. Nothing to run naked through the streets bragging about, but 5 times better than 33 basis points and a WHOLE lot closer to the 2.03% that Shiller says is the stock market’s history.

Now let’s stop right there.

Go back and look at the roller coaster blue line in the chart. Do you notice that the last low was lower than the prior low? Do you see that the high before this one, was higher than the high before that one? Any guesses on where the next low might be?

Now look at the red line. Looks like a smoother ride.

Would you be willing to give up 38 basis points (that’s the difference between 2.03% and 1.65%) to avoid having your stomach come out your ears?The stock market can be a wild ride

But we’re not done…

Remember that 80% loan? Well, this is a RENTAL property.

That means you have tenants who are paying enough every month to cover ALL the expenses, including the mortgage (and professional property management…because who wants to manage a property?), and a little bit more. If that’s not the case, then you shouldn’t own the property.

Assuming your loan rate is 5% fully amortized for 30 years, the very first loan payment includes a pay down of principal (that increases your net worth on your balance sheet because it reduces your liability…we call it amortized equity) is $96.12 and it goes UP each month from there.

So month 1 is the LOWEST profit rate of the entire 30 years. Make sense?

Math time!

$96.12 x 12 = $1153.44 minimum annual equity build up from amortization

$1153 on a $20,000 cash invested (remember, you only put 20% down) is a growth rate of 5.76% annualized. Add that to your 1.65% of new equity (previous calculation) and you’re up to 7.41%.

See? It’s starting to look better. And it smokes the actual return of the stock market (according to Shiller) and still doesn’t take into account tax breaks or positive cash flow from rents.

So just for fun…can you think of anything you’d rather be doing right now???…let’s add in some net operating income.

Suppose this rental property only provided a modest positive cash flow of about $70 a month net spendable after ALL expenses…including maintenance, turnover, vacancy and set-asides…plus property taxes, insurance, property management, etc.

Is that reasonable?

We think so…and here’s the math (don’t worry, it’s simple!)…

If this $100,000 property is renting for $1000 a month (our 1% rule…and there’s lots of those out there right now) and you budget 50% for all non-mortgage expenses and set-asides, you have $500 a month left for debt-service.

An $80,000 loan at 5% fully-amortized over 30 years gives you a payment of $430.

$1000 rental income less $500 for expenses = $500… less $430 for mortgage = $70.

See?

But $70 x 12 = $840

And $840 return on $20,000 down payment is a 4.7% cash on cash.

So when you put it all in your financial blender and hit puree…your 4.7% cash on cash together with your 5.76% amortized equity and your 1.65% from Shiller’s 33 basis points at 5:1 leverage, you have a total return of 8.11 %.   That sounds a LOT better than 2.03%.

Wow. Now we need a nap.

But take a listen as we take on the challenge of stocks versus real estate. We debate. You decide. Then we can all go have a pint.

Listen Now:

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The Real Estate Guys™ radio show and podcast provides real estate investing news, education, training and resources that help real estate investors succeed.